Natural Aptitude skill

Discussion in 'Campaign - 33XX: The Corporate Century' started by Solis Obscuri, Nov 29, 2016.

  1. Solis Obscuri

    Solis Obscuri Well Liked Hirdman

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    After last weekend's missions, I got a little more curious about this ability. The rules text:
    Sounds ok, but not outstanding - in fact, I don't think any of us have taken it for our Lancer builds, that I've seen. It's supposed to be a starter skill, quickly outgrown. Just how good could it be?

    Well... after our Hivetech adventure I got curious...

    So here's the basic breakdown of how the rolls differ for a straight 2d6 vs. 3d6 taking the best two:

    2d6_percentages.png
    3d6_drop_lowest_percentages.png
    Caption: So THAT'S how they kept rolling all those 12s!

    It's a pretty pronounced shift! Here's a cumulative breakdown to hit "at least" a given target number:

    2d6_vs_3d6-drop-lowest_cumulative_percentages.png

    (credit due to Rumkin.com and AnyDice for having online probability tools which saved me long and boring calculations)

    That's all straight probability. But just how good is it in the wild? I made a few comparisons considering the base pilot skills and needed to-hit modifiers:

    Natural_aptitude.png
    Skill4_vs_Natural_Aptitude.png
    Skill3_vs_Natural_Aptitude.png
    Skill2_vs_Natural_Aptitude.png


    Essentially you need to be rolling at Elite (or better) skill levels to beat Natural Aptitude. A skill level of 3 (Veteran gunnery) is flat out beat by Natural Aptitude, excepting the miniscule chance of rolling lucky against +9 in cumulative modifiers - which is a fringe case at best. Even Elite level skills are barely better until a +5 or +6 modifier, and only begin to significantly outpace Natural Aptitude at the +7 modifiers and higher.... which is really getting in the "barely worth trying" range of probabilities where you need a 10 or better.

    Considering that advancing Gunnery skill from 4 to 3 costs the same as Natural Aptitude, and is in no way an upgrade, it really doesn't seem worthwhile "progressing past" the skill until you can afford to dump the cumulative 26xp into going to GSR 2... and even then it's not a major improvement. Buying Piloting levels is a little cheaper, but it's still not great.

    And then factor in that these pilot abilities don't increase your BV like a skill increase does... for just 32 xp you get most of the benefit of having an Elite 2/3 or 2/2 pilot (which would cost at least 35xp or 53xp, depending on your starting choices), plus not have to take the additional 0.93 (or 1.17) BV multiplier! It's a pretty sweet deal.

    Granted, all quirks and special abilities don't go towards your BV, but most only benefit you very situationally and give you some kind of +1/+2/-1/-2 type bonus for that one thing. These are basically granting a -1.5 to all GSR or all PSR rolls.

    Never underestimate the value of a larger dice pool.

    GM EDIT - some minor things to clear up:

    • The above text is good info, but you have "levels" confused with "modifiers". Be careful about that.
    • Levels progress UP, and modifiers progress DOWN.
    • When you see 3/4 (gunnery/piloting) in megamek, those are roll modifier penalties, not levels; again, a lower "modifier" is better.
    • Modifiers are determined by this formula: [Max Skill Level - Current Skill Level = Modifier]
    • Level 1 is "Rookie/Ultra-Green"
    • Level 2 is "Green"
    • Level 3 is "Regular"
    • Level 4 is "Veteran"
    • Level 5 is "Elite"
    • Level 6 is "Heroic"
    • Level 7 and up is "Legendary"
    • Max levels are determined by the skill in question; 7 for Gunnery, 8 for Piloting. This is why you commonly see gunnery modifiers one point below piloting even though they are the same "level".
    Generally speaking, best practice is to never give modifier stats unless you SPECIFICALLY say "# modifier" or "# bonus/penalty" when you give it. Or say "my guy is a 3/4 pilot" which when both stats are said together, most veteran players know those are modifiers for gunnery/piloting, NOT levels.

    I know.. it's confusing, but unfortunately there is nothing I can do about that. Sometimes even I mix up the terminology. Welcome to the weird world of Battletech.

    (feel free to edit this as needed if you fix the "level vs. modifier" terminology in the main body of text)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2016
  2. Dihm

    Dihm Speaker of the Word Staff Member Gothi SC Thane

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    Damn you and your math.

    There is the counter that you are limited to only one of the primary Gunnery and Pilot skills. So if you take these you can't take the other good ones

    No Jumping Jack and Natural Aptitude Piloting. No Sniper and Natural Aptitude Gunnery
     
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  3. Solis Obscuri

    Solis Obscuri Well Liked Hirdman

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    Where's that specified? I don't see it in the description.
     
  4. Dihm

    Dihm Speaker of the Word Staff Member Gothi SC Thane

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    Gunnery Veteran Abilities: May have only ONE; requires Level 4 Gunnery (exception: Natural Aptitude, see below)

    Piloting Veteran Abilities: May have only ONE; requires Level 4 Piloting (exception: Natural Aptitude, see below)
     
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  5. SteelBear

    SteelBear Veteran Dovahbear Viking

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    The way I'm reading it is you lose natural aptitude when you upgrade your piloting or gunnery to lv4, so it doesn't stop you from picking up one of the other skills when you actually get to the required level. This will need some Magnus clarification though.
     
  6. Dihm

    Dihm Speaker of the Word Staff Member Gothi SC Thane

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    My read is that Gunnery and Piloting can be level 4, but no higher. This is your new cap if these abilities are taken. However they can be LOWER and you can still take those skills, unlike all the rest. Once a Veteran skill is taken from one of those categories, you are prohibited from taking more until you pay to remove that skill

    Paying to raise your Piloting or Gunnery skill and automatically losing Natural Aptitude would circumvent the cost of removal. It is one of the balancing factors
     
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  7. SteelBear

    SteelBear Veteran Dovahbear Viking

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    But down at the bottom of the page it says something along the lines of "once the skill is leveled beyond 4, natural aptitude is removed" I think. Again, we may all be reading it wrong and Magnus will clear it up when he shows up.

    Edit: Yep, you saw the part I was referring to. My question is why would it allow you to take one of those skills when your level is below 4 if you can't take the skill because you already took NA?

    Edit again: Ah, I see what you mean. Definitely a question for Magnus.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
  8. MagnusEffect

    MagnusEffect Administrator Staff Member Jarl SC Huscarl

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    Actually, the graph perfectly reflects how I planned it (nice work on that btw). After testing it long ago I quickly realized that combining Nat.Apt. with elite gunnery or piloting would quickly spell doom for any long term campaign. So I nerfed it by only allowing its use with Veteran level (+3/+4 pilot in megamek) or less. As a result, Nat.Apt. is perfect if you want a cheap and fast way to boost your combat proficiency right at the start. But remember, XP spent is not XP you get back; in the long term, it is more efficient use of XP to skip Nat.Apt. and boost your gunnery/piloting naturally. It really comes down to personal preference. Where Nat.Apt. really excels is for support personnel like your Handler where you need them to be competent in combat, but really want to boost their support skills.

    From a RP perspective, Natural Aptitude is like having "natural talent" as a pilot, but to really excel to an advanced level, you have to put aside the "bad habits" of informal knowledge or experience and absorb professional training that comes with earning "elite" or "legendary" status. As you rise above veteran level, your "natural aptitude" is trained out of you.

    Also, Dihm is right. If you take Natural Apt., that is your ONE Veteran ability. You can't use another. Again, this is perfectly fine for characters not focused on combat skills, but it actually puts you at somewhat of a long-term disadvantage if you plan on sinking a ton of XP into combat skills.

    To clarify, let me show the full description on the ability:
    Too long, didn't read version:
    [​IMG]

    :tentacle:
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  9. Dihm

    Dihm Speaker of the Word Staff Member Gothi SC Thane

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    Magnus, how do the skill caps work if you take them? Do they change to 4, requiring you to 'unbuy' Natural Aptitude? Or do you purchase the next rank of Piloting or Gunnery and Natural Aptitude disappears?
     
  10. MagnusEffect

    MagnusEffect Administrator Staff Member Jarl SC Huscarl

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    most veteran abilities only require that you have ONE per tree and that you have met the minimum skill level (4).

    Nat.Apt is different in that it has a skill MAX level, rather than minimum level requirement. the reason it is lumped in with the other Veteran abilities (I know that's a little confusing) is because the "Only One Veteran Ability" rule still applies.

    But to answer your question, if your skill level rises above 4 AFTER you got Nat.Apt., you lose the ability and no XP is refunded. Again, this is intentional. Nat.Apt. is meant as a "quick fix" to improving combat effectiveness for characters not focused on combat, but it is not the best (long-term) choice for a combat focused character.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  11. Dihm

    Dihm Speaker of the Word Staff Member Gothi SC Thane

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    Okay, so you don't need to spend XP to be able to boost those skills, got it!
     
  12. MagnusEffect

    MagnusEffect Administrator Staff Member Jarl SC Huscarl

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    what do you mean by "boost"? you have to spend XP to increase any skill or ability.

    natural aptitude still costs (16) XP... and you don't get that back if you lose the ability.
     
  13. Dihm

    Dihm Speaker of the Word Staff Member Gothi SC Thane

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    Usually to get rid of 'negatives' you have to pay to remove them. What you are saying is there is no need to pay 16 XP to remove Natural Aptitude before spending XP to raise your skill ('boosting' it) as I assumed. It is automatically removed when you pay to raise your skill
     
  14. MagnusEffect

    MagnusEffect Administrator Staff Member Jarl SC Huscarl

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    Last I checked you don't have to pay XP to remove any skill or ability. Closest thing to that is if you have "Weapon Spec: ER Large Laser" and want to switch to "Weapon Spec: ER PPC", you can pay half the cost you would normally. I never saw any point in penalizing players for "forgetting" stuff... that just discourages dynamic character development.

    That being said, no one has ever asked me if they can reduce their skill level in gunnery or piloting arbitrarily. I suppose if that was necessary to qualify for Nat. Apt, I see no reason to rule against it other than to require some excellent RP to explain the occurance.

    Just no Fred Flintstone bonks on the head. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
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  15. Dihm

    Dihm Speaker of the Word Staff Member Gothi SC Thane

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    I may have been thinking of Quirks and gotten mind gooped
     
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  16. Solis Obscuri

    Solis Obscuri Well Liked Hirdman

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    "Ow, my eye!"
     
  17. MagnusEffect

    MagnusEffect Administrator Staff Member Jarl SC Huscarl

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    Yes, vehicle quirks you have to pay to remove, but quirks are not tied to XP. you do those with cold hard cash.