The Treadhead Thread

MagnusEffect · Sep 25, 2012

This thread is for discussion on tank builds and refits for the campaign. Let me start off with a favorite of mine:

<Name>
Goblin Medium Tank
<Name>

<Model>
(SPG) MkIII
<Model>

<year>
2750
</year>

<type>
IS Level 3
</type>

<motion_type>
Tracked
</motion_type>

<cruiseMP>
4
</cruiseMP>

<engine_type>
0
</engine_type>

<armor>
18
18
18
18
</armor>

<Body Equipment>
ISSniperAmmo
ISSniperAmmo
ISSniperAmmo
</Body Equipment>

<Front Equipment>
ISSniper
</Front Equipment>

<Right Equipment>
</Right Equipment>

<Left Equipment>
</Left Equipment>

<Rear Equipment>
</Rear Equipment>

<tonnage>
45.0
</tonnage>

Yes... that is a VERY large gun on a very small tank. Think of it as the Long Tom Artillery's little brother. The nice thing about this tank compared to the LTA is that it is faster (twice as fast!) and in a smaller package. Being under 50 tons it can fit in many places where bigger tanks can't go. Also, by forgoing an XL engine, it is a very affordable artillery option. When you absolutely, positively need heavy long range firepower in a hurry, look no further. A lance of these things can demolish a parked dropship in no time at all... slower assault mechs too.

MagnusEffect · Aug 28, 2012

And here is a more traditional Main Battle Tank version of the Goblin... I know... I know... but the Goblin is just a great tank chassis to work with:

<Name>
Goblin Medium Tank
</Name>

<Model>
(MBT) MkIV
</Model>

<year>
2750
</year>

<type>
IS Level 3
</type>

<motion_type>
Tracked
</motion_type>

<cruiseMP>
4
</cruiseMP>

<engine_type>
2
</engine_type>

<armor_type>
1
</armor_type>

<armor_tech>
1
</armor_tech>

<armor>
54
28
28
20
40
</armor>

<Body Equipment>
IS Gauss Ammo
IS Gauss Ammo
IS Gauss Ammo
IS Machine Gun Ammo - Half
</Body Equipment>

<Front Equipment>
</Front Equipment>

<Right Equipment>
</Right Equipment>

<Left Equipment>
</Left Equipment>

<Rear Equipment>
</Rear Equipment>

<Turret Equipment>
ISGaussRifle
Medium Laser
Medium Laser
Machine Gun
</Turret Equipment>

<tonnage>
45.0
</tonnage>

Yep.. that's a tank that makes a better Hollander than the Hollander

Dihm · Aug 28, 2012

No concerns with having EVERYTHING in the turret? I don't do much tanking in Battletech, but I always hesitate to load everything in one spot, at least with mechs.

ChargerIIC · Aug 28, 2012

I a tank if you lose a location you are dead anyway, might as well turret load everything.

Luxan · Aug 28, 2012

Well, you can lose the turret and still function. Though for most tanks at that point "function" means "get the hell out of there". Still, since the other firing arcs don't overlap much, the turret is the only reliable way to focus your firepower.

Dihm · Aug 28, 2012

ChargerIIC · Aug 28, 2012

#building block data file
<BlockVersion>
1
</BlockVersion>

##Write the version number just in case...
<Version>
MAM0
</Version>

<UnitType>
Tank
</UnitType>

<Name>
Goblin Medium Tank - Skirmish Model
</Name>

<Model>
Tank
</Model>

<year>
2750
</year>

<type>
IS Level 2
</type>

<motion_type>
Tracked
</motion_type>

<cruiseMP>
4
</cruiseMP>

<engine_type>
0
</engine_type>

<armor>
32
20
20
20
20
</armor>

<Body Equipment>
IS Ammo LRM-10
ISGuardianECMSuite
IS Vehicle Flamer Ammo
</Body Equipment>

<Front Equipment>
LRM 10
LRM 10
</Front Equipment>

<Right Equipment>
</Right Equipment>

<Left Equipment>
</Left Equipment>

<Rear Equipment>
Vehicle Flamer
</Rear Equipment>

<Turret Equipment>
Medium Laser
Medium Laser
Medium Laser
Medium Laser
</Turret Equipment>

<tonnage>
45.0
</tonnage>

Always like Ontos-like builds. A strong short range defense with enough long-range bite to make certain the tank was viable during all rounds of a match.

Luxan · Aug 28, 2012

Actually a similar configuration to what I was thinking, Charger. Mine is more dedicated to support but still carries a sting for enemies that happen to get close. It is also more expensive (had to resort to an XL), but I should be able to afford the refit easily.

<UnitType>
Tank
</UnitType>

<Name>
Goblin Medium Tank
</Name>

<Model>
(LRM) 'Hagelskur'
</Model>

<year>
3047
</year>

<type>
IS Level 3
</type>

<motion_type>
Tracked
</motion_type>

<cruiseMP>
4
</cruiseMP>

<engine_type>
2
</engine_type>

<armor_type>
1
</armor_type>

<armor_tech>
5
</armor_tech>

<armor>
40
25
25
23
30
</armor>

<Body Equipment>
IS Ammo LRM-15
IS Ammo LRM-15
IS Ammo LRM-15
IS Ammo LRM-15
IS Ammo LRM-15
IS Ammo LRM-15
</Body Equipment>

<Front Equipment>
LRM 15
LRM 15
</Front Equipment>

<Right Equipment>
</Right Equipment>

<Left Equipment>
</Left Equipment>

<Rear Equipment>
</Rear Equipment>

<Turret Equipment>
ISMediumPulseLaser
ISMediumPulseLaser
</Turret Equipment>

<tonnage>
45.0
</tonnage>

MagnusEffect · Aug 29, 2012

@Dihm: I'm a bit late to respond, but Charger and Luxan are right... although by "losing function" I'm assuming Luxan means when the turret locks in place. Another nice thing about all weapons being turret mounted is that you can somewhat control where you take damage depending on which side you turn to. Many times I can get more mileage out of a tank by moving to optimum range and keeping my front armor facing the enemy. When the front armor takes too much damage, I then start moving parallel to my target (more or less). Once one side of my tank is "buttered", I turn around and face the other side. By that point (assuming I'm still functioning), I can begin retreating facing my fresh rear armor towards my enemy. Since all my weapons are mounted in the turret I can keep up a maximum rate of fire the whole time.

The biggest drawback (and it is not that big of a drawback) is that for every "certain" number of weapons mounted to the turret, a certain amount of tonnage must be added to improve the mechanical system that powers the turret. I forget the number exactly... something like .5 tons for every 2-3 weapons i think. The more the number and size of the weapons, the more weight has to be used to power the turret. This is why fewer and bigger guns mounted to the turret is preferable to many smaller guns (although there is some leeway there).

---

It is also worth noting that vehicles are more resistant to critical damage taken on the front armor and least resistant to critical damage to the rear. This is why my designs typically have the armor focused on the front and turret armor. Ideally, it is best to face towards your enemy unless you think you have enough speed to evade their shots by kiting (such as faster hovercraft). My artillery typically have very light armor evenly distributed because it is assumed they should NOT be coming under direct fire very often.

---

Somewhat related:

Another interesting design quirk of vehicles; they suffer far less critical slot issues than mechs do with XL engines! Other than being very expensive to buy or replace, a tank or VTOL with an XL engine suffers no performance issues. Once you get the chassis you want and have the money to burn, upgrading to an XL engine is highly recommended.

---

Also, I am requiring that all designs maintain a minimum speed of 64 kph (cruise: 4 / flank: 6 movement). This speed is typical of your modern day main battle tank. The reason for this need for.. well... speed is that anything slower is simply not practical for offensive movement in hostile territory. Those assault tanks make an excellent choice for large regular garrisons, but for a small mercenary outfit such as ours, speed and flexibility are very important (And don't worry, you can be sure that I will be making similar requirements to your Battlemech friends).

Finally, for your consideration:

<Name>
Patton Tank
</Name>

<Model>
(MBT-G)
</Model>

<year>
3045
</year>

<type>
IS Level 2
</type>

<motion_type>
Tracked
</motion_type>

<cruiseMP>
4
</cruiseMP>

<engine_type>
0
</engine_type>

<armor_type>
1
</armor_type>

<armor_tech>
1
</armor_tech>

<armor>
72
32
32
20
50
</armor>

<Body Equipment>
IS Gauss Ammo
IS Gauss Ammo
IS Gauss Ammo
IS Machine Gun Ammo - Half
</Body Equipment>

<Front Equipment>
</Front Equipment>

<Right Equipment>
</Right Equipment>

<Left Equipment>
</Left Equipment>

<Rear Equipment>
</Rear Equipment>

<Turret Equipment>
ISGaussRifle
Medium Laser
Medium Laser
Machine Gun
</Turret Equipment>

<tonnage>
65.0
</tonnage>

The main difference between this one and the Goblin MkIV is that this one doesn't use an XL engine and therefore despite having the same weapons and better armor, it is ALSO cheaper. Truth be told, you will not find a better tank that manages to blend speed, armor, and firepower at such an economic cost (3.1 million). However, if you were to add an XL engine, the 10 tons it would afford you could go to even more firepower.

MagnusEffect · Aug 29, 2012

Also:

@Charger: One serious flaw I see with your design: 1 ton of ammo for two LRM 10s (6 shots each) is not nearly enough. I recommend a minimum of 15 shots per ammunition based weapon, especially with long ranged weapons since they generally have more targets to fire upon.

I also generally dislike non-turret mounted weapons unless they are evenly distributed to cover all sides (although I typically only do this if the vehicle has no turret to begin with). A flamer is already severely limited by range, limiting its arc to the rear is going to make it even less useful. Also, since it would most likely to be used against infantry and since most infantry are encountered in limiting terrain, you are far more likely to have them engage your side armor (such as when you pass a city block). Also keep in mind many infantry cannot fire and move in the same turn; the only reason infantry would be that close on your rear was if you seriously screwed up somehow.

---

Also, same as with people designing mechs, I need to remind you all that any new tank designs need to maintain the "feel" of the original. There is already a canon Goblin with a very similar loadout to what you guys have, but with the LRMs turret mounted. To be honest, I also think you will have a much easier maintaining optimum range if you move them to the turret anyway. I don't think the fractional amount of weight saved is worth "hardsetting" your primary weapons to your forward arc. It is just setting you up to be flanked very easily.

ChargerIIC · Aug 29, 2012

MagnusEffect said: ↑

Also:

@Charger: One serious flaw I see with your design: 1 ton of ammo for two LRM 10s (6 shots each) is not nearly enough. I recommend a minimum of 15 shots per ammunition based weapon, especially with long ranged weapons since they generally have more targets to fire upon. I also generally dislike non-turret mounted weapons unless they are evenly distributed to cover all sides (although I typically only do this if the vehicle has no turret to begin with). A flamer is already severely limited by range, limiting its arc to the rear is going to make it even less useful. Also, since it would most likely to be used against infantry and since most infantry are encountered in limiting terrain, you are far more likely to have them engage your side armor (such as when you pass a city block). Also keep in mind many infantry cannot fire and move in the same turn; the only reason infantry would be that close on your rear was if you seriously screwed up somehow.
Click to expand...

The flamer is bad habit left over from smoke rules. I could dedicate it to the LRM launchers, but they are really just for presence before the tank closes. For the campaign I'd probably remove the flamer and dist. the weight into a second ton of LRMs and maybe CASE (less repairs).

ChargerIIC · Aug 29, 2012

Just for fun this was the first vehicle design I ever used. It died in the first round from arty splash damage (critical, crew killed)

http://www.solaris7.com/TRO/Vehicle/VehicleInfo.asp?ID=1558

MagnusEffect · Aug 29, 2012

Patton Tank
</Name>

<Model>
(Pommel)
</Model>

<tonnage>
65.0
</tonnage>

<year>
3005
</year>

<type>
IS Level 1
</type>

<motion_type>
Tracked
</motion_type>

<transporters>
troopspace:1.0
</transporters>

<cruiseMP>
4
</cruiseMP>

<engine_type>
0
</engine_type>

<armor>
70
32
32
24
50
</armor>

<Body Equipment>
IS Ammo AC/20
IS Ammo AC/20
IS Ammo AC/20
IS Ammo AC/20
</Body Equipment>

<Turret Equipment>
Autocannon/20
Flamer
</Turret Equipment>

The ultimate urban assault tank (with speed still in mind). It is based on the Rommel, but features the better armor of the Patton (hence the "Pommel" designation). The reason for the low rear armor is that this thing is intended to park around blind corners and block streets. Typically, you would have the tank park with it's back to a wall or building and then wait for someone to pass by. The heavy frontal and turret armor ensures you will outlast almost anything and the Flamer is there to chase infantry out of buildings. Only costing 2.8 million (less than some light mechs) means that you can field a very effective defense even on a meager budget.

Finally, you will notice the Pommel takes a page from the Goblin by including transport space for one squad of infantry (~7 men). This is mostly for fluff reasons, but the idea is that the infantry are considered "mounted infantry" and attached to the Pommel in a recon/spotter role. 4 Pommels (a lance) can transport an entire infantry platoon (~28 men). In an urban environment, this gives the Pommels a built-in recon element that can spot targets and allow the tanks to maneuver for the ideal ambush. Also, while the Pommels are limited to blowing them up or burning them down, the infantry can be used to secure buildings intact.

Aspius · Aug 29, 2012

Have you changed the rules so that we can pick above 50 tons considering that you are now showing tanks that weight 65 tons.

Luxan · Aug 29, 2012

An idea I had for a more mobile Gauss platform and still under our 50-ton limit. According to my calculations, one could purchase the basic Condor for 1,217,000 C-bills and then do this refit for 737,000 C-bills. I used a standard fusion engine rather than an XL, because the minimum engine weight for a 50-ton hover is 10 tons. So the only thing you could do with the XL is go faster and 8/12 seems fine to me. Also, I'm still debating rather its worth having the Medium Laser or another ton of Gauss ammo. That would leave it without a backup weapon, but would also lighten the turret by a half ton, which could go to armor.

Aspius, would you be interested in a build like this? Or do you already have your own ideas?

Condor Heavy Hover Tank (Gauss)

Mass: 50 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: Hovercraft
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-D
Battle Value: 1,255

Equipment Type Rating Mass
-----------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 25 points 5.00
Engine: Fusion Engine 165 10.00
Cruise MP: 8
Flank MP: 12
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 10 0.00
Control Equipment: 2.50
Lift Equipment: 5.00
Turret: 2.00
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 134 7.50

Armor
Factor
Front 36
Left/Right 22/22
Turret 34
Rear 20

==========================================
Equipment Location Heat Spaces Mass
------------------------------------------------------
Gauss Rifle T 1 1 15.00
Medium Laser T 3 1 1.00
@Gauss Rifle (16) BD - 0 2.00

Luxan · Aug 29, 2012

To whom it may concern:
################################
Requesting a refit at your earliest convenience...

Original Chassis:
Goblin Medium Tank (LRM) MkIII

Refit Kit:
Goblin Medium Tank (LRM) 'Hagelskur'

New components:
1 180 XL [Vehicle] Engine
1 LRM 15 Ammo Bin
6 Armor (Ferro-Fibrous)s
1 Turret
2 Medium Pulse Lasers

Refit Cost:
1,479,500 C-Bills

Refit Work Time (minutes):
Class F (Factory)
21,860 minutes

Dropbox Recordsheet Link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2qecxpkanf5qh91/Goblin Medium Tank (LRM) 'Hagelskur'.blk

MagnusEffect · Aug 29, 2012

Aspius said: ↑

Have you changed the rules so that we can pick above 50 tons considering that you are now showing tanks that weight 65 tons.
Click to expand...

The only reason you couldn't before was because our Dropship couldn't fit >50 ton tanks. Now it can so now you can

MagnusEffect · Aug 30, 2012

Suggested percentages for armor placing on Main Battle Tanks after testing (of total armor points):

Front = 32%
Turret = 19.4%
Sides = 19.4%
Rear = 9.7%

These percentages account for 99.9%. While it is not recommended to change these figures substantially, you may occasionally have 1-3 floating points. Use your best judgement but when in doubt, one or two more points on the front armor (or rear if you are fitted for short range) probably won't hurt.

For a 65 ton Patton with 11.5 tons of Ferro Fibrous (206 points total):

Front = 66
Turret = 40
Sides = 40
Rear = 20

Old armor before testing:

Front = 72
Turret = 50
Sides = 32
Rear = 20

It was found after testing that the old armor fitting was too light on the sides and too heavy on the turret. The front armor was also a bit too heavy and encouraged enemies to flank rather than try to pound through it. 16 points moved to the sides (8 for each) seemed like a significant improvement.

Dihm · Aug 30, 2012

This makes me want to grab a hovertank and powerslide around a map.

Luxan · Aug 30, 2012

Yeah, I was doing some testing on my Hagelskur also. Looks like I'll probably get flanked more than I was hoping. I have updated the armor allocation on my refit request. I didn't change the total armor rating, so it shouldn't affect the refit time or cost.

Dropbox Recordsheet link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2qecxpkanf5qh91/Goblin Medium Tank (LRM) 'Hagelskur'.blk?m

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The Treadhead Thread

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