Medium Lasers are still OP (proposed final solution to the problem)

Solution: remove medium lasers from the game.

ha. just joking.

Let's be honest with ourselves. A couple medium lasers on any design is really not breaking anything. The problem I see with medium lasers is when they are heavily boated; they quickly outstrip the damage/ton capabilities of other weapons. I don't want to be a GM that says "you can't have that many because I said so". Rather, I would like to come up with a mechanic that can be equally applied to all designs.

Generally speaking, energy based weapons are perhaps the most well rounded weapon for anti-mech warfare. Even against other non-mech targets, you really can't go wrong with them in most cases. When you also consider you can adjust their heat damage/output and the fact that they work fine in any environment, they quickly become far more attractive to more specialized weapons of which only a few are marginally more effective. Besides reducing the potential for boating medium/small lasers, my main goal here is to create an additional limiting factor to energy based weapons and make ballistics or missiles more attractive.

With that, I introduce the "Power Output" mechanic. Simply put, much like your computer a mech's engine has a certain amount of power output that is used to run all systems... including energy weapons. Realistically speaking, since ballistic and missile weapons do not have nearly the same power draw as their energy counterparts, these are completely excluded from the mechanic. Theoretically, the amount of output needed to power 20 machine guns is much less than one PPC. The engine on the mech would be the only deciding factor to the power output of that mech. Here is the preliminary formula:

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For example, let's look at some classic energy based designs:

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Power Requirement: Damage vs Heat Based

Now you may be asking "if the power requirement is damage based, but not heat based, doesn't that mean a PPC is roughly as energy efficient as two medium lasers? Shouldn't a PPC require significantly more power output?"

Well, to be honest... on strictly lore terms I have a hard time arguing against this. However, remember that one of the main goals here is to discourage medium laser boating by implementing a fair system that can be applied equally to all. If the power output mechanic was heat based, we would still be reinforcing the boating of medium and small lasers.

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Canon Mech Issues:

There is one other sticky issue that needs addressing. There are a few canon designs that specifically boat medium lasers. These are among the most popular and powerful canon designs available. They also fly in the face of what the PO mechanic is trying to fix. A classic example:

Besides banning their use outright (something I am not enthusiastic about doing), the best solution I can come up with is to exempt all canon designs from the Power Output requirement. Any change at all to a canon design will void its exempt status. If this ruling causes problems, we will adjust accordingly. For lore purposes, consider these factory stock designs equipped with special "hardwired" power amplifiers that compensate for the increased energy draw requirements. Adjusting any internal components at all requires their removal.

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Clans:

Due to their increased damage potential, Clan mechs will likely need relaxed PO limits. The most likely solution is that it will again be based on the engine rating but divided by a lower amount (such as dividing by 5 or 6 instead of 7 like for IS units). The final result should allow for about the same number of energy weapons as usual, but compensated for their increased damage values. Thorough testing will be required before I can rule further on this.

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Improving "Combat Role" Focus:

The end result is that this mechanic should add a new and interesting layer to designing your mech.
-Recon units require bigger engines and bigger engines allow for more energy based weapons; this is incredibly important for scouts since they are most likely to operate far from reliable supply lines. In essence, energy weapons will remain the primary choice for scouts and raiders.
-On the other side of the spectrum, players that are interested in maximizing their firepower by taking a slower mech will have to get more creative in their choice of weapons; massive batteries of medium lasers will no longer be viable. Assault mechs in particular will need to rely more on missile and ballistics than smaller mechs (something they already mostly do).
-As mentioned earlier, mechs like the Awesome will now be more attractive for their "siege weapon" capabilities; massive long range firepower, but requiring protection from enemies at short range.
Questions, thoughts, suggestions? Remember that the above is just a preliminary plan and subject to change.

 

Gauss Rifle:

Something else to consider as well... it is well known that the Gauss Rifle is a power-hungry monster. It is also another very well rounded and efficient weapon. The ER PPC + Gauss Rifle + Medium Laser battery combo is one of the most efficient and common weapon combinations in Battletech (some of my favorite designs abuse this fact). Should the Gauss Rifle be included for the Power Output mechanic?

Here is a prime example of what I mean:

So basically, if the Gauss Rifle is NOT included for the Power Output mechanic, this Zeus has far more flexibility in abusing medium laser boating. However, if the Gauss Rifle was included, the Zeus would either have to drop the PPC for a more traditional LRM launcher or would have to drop 2 medium lasers for something else (most likely an SRM launcher). After seeing this, I'm inclined to include the Gauss Rifle in the PO mechanic.

 

In regards to custom designs that are not compliant with the Power Output mechanic:

If we implement the rule, all players will have a ONE TIME opportunity to readjust their weapon loadout appropriately FOR NO COST TO THE PLAYER. ONLY WEAPONS, HEAT SINKS, AND SENSOR EQUIPMENT MAY BE CHANGED! You will not be able to add/remove endo steel, ferro fibrous, CASE, jump jets, or change your engine. You will not be able to change the type of heat sink you are using. As always, ultimate discretion is left up to the GM if an issue arises that is not already addressed above.

 

And there's also the point that those mechanics... well they probably can't be implemented in-game. This solution of Magnus's is a easy, simple fix to get rid of completely boating designs. In order to actually change it so that you can only fire so many weapons in a turn, well he'd have to re-write the code of MegaMek, so far as I know. Other than that, it's using the honor system, to expect your players to do that.

 

In a perfect world, that would be ideal, but in practice, it would be too hard to regulate effectively. What happened when someone fired too many weapons and the defending player is rightly upset over it? Nah.. that would just open up way too many problems and bog down an already relatively slow game.

I also thought about tying it to the number of heat sinks you have instead instead, but that brings us back to the same problem that medium lasers are just too damn efficient for their own good.

First off... yes, it would nerf all energy based assault mechs. But that is because (like I said in the original post) medium lasers are OP as fuck. Assault mechs can fit way more firepower than smaller mechs so, naturally, they are going to be hit the hardest. But you are overestimating the amount assault mechs will be nerfed by this change. As in the example of the zeus, the difference is 2 medium lasers (actually, it is ONE, but I will get to that in a minute). Let me remind you that the whole point of this is to discourage medium and small laser boating. If you want to take a 100 ton mech with a 300 rated engine and 3 ER PPCs (good luck fitting 4), have at it!... you can still do that. Just know that you can't then also fill the rest with medium lasers.

The lore aspect I am really not overly concerned with right now. The simple fact of the matter is that medium and small lasers are broken as shit and need fixing... and I don't want to play the "5 is okay but 6 is too many" game anymore. We can find some "lore" explaination for it after we get the damn things fixed. Honestly, if you give it a fair chance, you will find you really won't have to alter your designs all that much. If you rely heavily on energy designs then I think a better question to ask is why is that? If that is the case, you are indirectly proving my point. I have built roughly 80 something designs for megamek and I'm fairly certain about 90% of them are still compliant without any changes... the rest are easily fixed with very minor alterations.

For the record, mechs that use the higher engine ratings are usually 70-95 tons; the Flashman, Battlemaster and Banshee are a good examples. They are much more energy heavy and they can use 375, 340, and 380 engines respectively (i think)... when you run the numbers, it is actually pretty leniant in their power output reqs. Also, most 100 tonners tend to be heavy on the ballistics anyway. I don't know about you, but how many 100 ton all energy mechs are there? That sounds VEEEERY munchkin to me... and don't you dare bring anything Jihad era into this. :suspicion: Also, as mentioned previously, Clans will have to be addressed separately since their damage figures are much higher.

I actually felt kind of bad about doing this knowing you had picked one of the most notoriously OP mechs as your starter mech. It honestly wasn't directed at you though. This whole thing actually started after people gave me shit for having 7 medium lasers and an ER PPC on my mech... and that got me thinking. They were right. It just took me awhile to get all this down on paper.

There is more to Battletech than just batteries of medium lasers. I know the change will be harder for some, but try to focus on the opportunity this presents; weapons that you probably would have never used before are now a lot more viable. The change, I believe, will make energy, missiles, and ballistics more equally attractive.

What he said. And while I like to use the Honor System fairly liberally, there is no "Back" button in Megamek. If someone Alpha Strikes someone else when they shouldn't have (and you can bet money it will happen), we can't do shit about it besides loading a previous save... and that is assuming the save file works correctly (they don't always). PASS.

 

After some more testing (and talking with Val), I agree that 15 power for the Gauss Rifle is too high. 10 (same as a PPC) I think will be much more appropriate... and since Gauss Rifles are mostly used by heavier mechs anyway, this will also help allow them a little more wiggle room in power output usage.

 

Please note that the following is not specifically directed at belakor502... just intended as a general statement to everyone:

I'm perfectly happy with anyone suggesting tweaks/alterations to the core mechanic of this. However, if you are strongly opposed to this idea, I need you to come up with OBJECTIVE reasons as to why it should be different. Show me MATH. Give me some data to work with. I've given you multiple examples on why it works. I need more than "I don't like it because it nerfs energy weapons" (again... that is *sorta* the point... they need it). I welcome anyone who can build a better mouse trap than me, but I need you to SHOW me how you can do it better.

I will help get the ball rolling:

I'm 2 over... perfect. Since I'm less than 3 PO over, I don't acquire any heat penalties. The end result doesn't change the overall theme of the mech at all. All it does is discourage the abuse of small and medium lasers... which means the Power Output mechanic is WORKING AS INTENDED!

 

Mastermind Bluetavius has come up with a brilliant compromise! All of the above applies, but if you exceed the power requirement, power output related weapons only incur a negative heat quirk (already available in Megamek). In other words, now you can still take as many energy weapons as you want, but the more you exceed your Power Output the more you will incur additional heat penalties.

More specifically, this is my favorite solution so far:

And now for something much more blatantly exploiting medium lasers:

*Negative Quirks gained from the Power Output mechanic cannot be removed via the Upgrades Table. These can only be removed by lowering power requirement below maximum output.

*Interestingly enough, this solution could easily be applied to canon mechs without changing any of their loadouts.

Finally, a very special "thank you" to Ghizmo and Cyko for their valuable input in coming up with this.

 

List of Power Output reliant weapons (so far)
-power requirements for all weapons are the same as their damage except where specifically noted.

Inner Sphere Weapons
Heavy PPC
ER PPC
PPC
Light PPC
ER Large Laser
Large Pulse Laser
Large Laser
Medium Pulse Laser
Medium Laser
Small Pulse Laser
Small Laser
Flamer
Heavy Gauss Rifle = 15 power
Gauss Rifle = 10 power
Light Gauss Rifle = 5 power

 

well... you make a good point there (maybe just OP for 3025 mechs). and please forgive me if it sounded like i was implying anything. i'm not worried about you doing it specifically, but if left unchecked it is only a matter of time before someone makes a fully upgraded Hunchback medium laser boat. That thing would be ridiculous.

also, you can still keep the build you have if you want. i think all you would need to do is maybe convert a few medium lasers to an SRM rack and you are golden.

oh.. haha! yeah... isn't it funny how context can change everything? no worries. if you ever get the impulse to play where it all started, look us up. we are doing drops at least once a week on saturdays.... hopefully more so we can accomodate some other people who cant make saturday.

 

Yeah.. I am sympathetic to the Tech 1 rules-only crowd. I definitely enjoy it myself from time to time, especially when most of the TacOps rules are active such as the autocannon bonuses and energy weapon dialing (makes things very interesting). That said, I can also understand why a lot of players prefer the expanded weapon set (Gauss Rifles are, admittedly, pretty cool).

And you are absolutely right about the need to keep it straightforward. I knew from the start that whatever I did, it had to be easy to understand and implement. With the new refinements made recently, I think we are hitting pretty close to a solid compromise.

 

Amen, brother. Yeah... repetitiveness is the only thing that keeps me from going pure Tech 1. Megamek allows for many of the TacOps rules, but sadly not all of them (I REALLY want to have punching-with-arm-weapons-and-firing in the game, but alas...). I have a pdf copy of TacOps if you want it, but much respect if you want to throw real money at the game for a hard copy. Stay tuned, though! I can't reveal anything yet, but I have something in the oven that I think you will really like. School + work has put it on the backburner though... Expect to hear more after the December holiday season is over.